Hi. The guidelines of this wiki say that if there are no official lyrics available for a song, they should be transcribed. Two users have repeatedly edited the lyrics for Love, adding an "at" that can not be heard in the song at all. I made an audio clip of the part where Lana clearly sings "look you", not "look at you". I'm getting tired of reverting their edits. Can you please do something about it?
She clearly says "Look at you kids". Can't you hear it? If you slow it down you can hear it even better. Sorry that's its annoying that I keep changing it but I'm positive those are the correct lyrics.
There's nothing resembling the sound of "at" in her singing. Nothing like the sound of "a" or "t" either. If you think otherwise you can use free audio editing software like Audacity and isolate what you think is the "at" sound, then post it here. "An insider's information before the leak" that you referred to can't count as the official lyrics either.
Thanamesjoani wrote: The official lyrics on Apple Music say "Look at you kids". You can't really hear it but yes it is there
I've never used Apple Music. I know Spotify uses crowdsourced lyrics. Is there anything that indicates Apple does it differently? As per the last section of this article, they even allow for the possibility of them being incorrect.
Honeymoon, people hear a lot of things that aren't there and confirmation bias is also a thing. There are plenty of incorrect lyrics for songs because of that. It's the reason I contribute to lyric.wikia.com. The earliest versions of Salvatore here had "Hussein" where we now have "he sang" in the lyrics.
"Look you kids" is perfectly fine grammatically, similar to something like "Come on you guys".
It seems we've got quite the discussion going on here!
As it has previously been mentioned, for a while now the site policy has said that, in the case of no official lyrics being provided, it is "up to the community" to transcribe songs as accurately as possible. I wrote the site policies about two years ago in one sitting and I've amended the lyric section today to make it more clear that when there is contention over the accuracy of an interpretation, the interpretation agreed upon by the majority should be used. In this case, I would say it looks to be in favour of "Look at you" rather than "Look you".
I, personally, have heard both interpretations at different times and having read through the discussion above I don't think there's any clear, objective or definitive evidence of either hearing to be correct. There is a slight /ə/ sound in between "look" and "you" and this could either be Lana saying "at" in a very unstressed way, which is common for non-lexical words, thus removing the /t/ sound and closing the normally open /æ/ or /a/ vowel in "at" to /ə/. Alternatively it could be a byproduct of Lana “fricativizing” the /k/ noise producing a higher pitch which, when combined with the dark sounding /j/ that follows creates a /ə/. In essence, phonetically, we can't tell. Both options make sense, "look you kids" may be an imperative directed to "you kids" or "look at you kids" may be an imperative to look at "you kids". Private conversations, especially on social media, are incredibly hard to verify and so wouldn't really be valid as a source.
So that's that really, we can't be sure. Hopefully the updated site policy will be a bit clearer if something like this crops up in the future.
Feel free to message me if you think we need any more clarity on any other site issues.
Ben, the first version of the lyrics that you introduced said "look you", meaning that the first thing you or whoever is behind the lyrics heard when listening to the song was "look you", not "look at you". It appears that the only editors that have been changing it to "look at you" since then have been OneHoneymoon and Lnnlan33333. LanzDelRey agreed with their wording here. Thanamesjoani said it could not be heard. So as of right now, it's 3 versus 3 people in favor of each transcription.
It's worth noting that even if the official lyrics (which aren't available in this case) said it's "look at you", it's not necessarily what's sung, as there are plenty of cases where it's not the case. Recently, I edited the lyrics for Gothic Girl by The 69 Eyes, where the singer clearly sings "Christ, I love you, gothic girl" multiple times but the line isn't in the official lyrics. The booklet also says "darken world", not "darkened world" but does it make it right? I know on this wiki we'd have to stick to the official lyrics if we had them, so I'm only saying the above to demonstrate that editors shouldn't blindly rely on what they think are the official lyrics and potentially let it lead to confirmation bias.
Yep, the first time I heard the song I heard "look you", but upon listening to it more I've heard "look at you", as such I wouldn't cast my vote towards either - I don't think I can say.
In that regard, there are still 3 editors who consistently hear "look at you" (4 if you count me hearing it intermittently)! I just reread Thanamesjoani's post and, not to put words in their mouth, I believe they're saying that while you can't clearly hear "at", they concede, and I quote, "yes it is there".
Along with that, the six people that you've mentioned are not the only people attempting to transcribe the lyrics. On the very popular Lana Del Rey forum Lanaboards they have transcribed it as "look at you", obviously the person who had the track before it leaked heard "look at you", and, while I know it's not a fantastic measure, when I google "look at you kids" and "lana del rey" (with the quotation marks to assure the exact phrase is found ), the search returns 16,900 results whereas "look you kids" "lana del rey" returns 5,540 - a substantially lower number.
In regards to official lyric sources occasionally being wrong, absolutely I agree it does happen, however, generally when they're wrong they're very clearly wrong. Lana's discography has it's very own example (see this image from the Ultraviolence digital booklet) and, if you check the lyric page for "Ultraviolence", you'll see that no one has contested the transcription of "poison" rather than "passion" because it is very obvious. If you double check the site policy on official lyrics, rather than saying editors "have to stick to the official lyrics", the actual policy is "refer back to [the official lyrics] where possible" and I would say that editors of the "Ultraviolence" article have done that and certainly not blindly relied on official sources.
At this point, because the words being "look at you" or "look you" is still very unclear, if and when any official lyrics come out we would use that as the final say because it is the closest to Lana's own feelings about what she said as we are going to get until she, or anyone particularly close to the production of the song, actually confirms it in public.
In the meantime, as far as I can see the majority of people talking about the lyrics for "Love" are writing it as "look at you", and so we should follow suit until something with a little more weight comes up.
Fingers crossed this clarifies the matter a little.
Thanamesjoani seems to be saying that the "at" is officially in the lyrics but not in the song. It'd be better if they clarified though.
I'd say the amount of google results for each version means very little because most lyrics sites always obtain lyrics from other sites of the sort. I can't think of any website which has a dedicated team of people that personally transcribe lyrics and/or only rely on official sources.
I once did my own transcription of the lyrics of an album when there were none online, and then soon enough those exact same lyrics of the same format were all over the internet.
In any case, I'm 100% sure there's no "at" in Lana's singing, and I've listened to the song many times, as well as the isolated part of it and I've looked closely at its waveform readings, but it appears there's nothing I can do to make the lyrics here reflect that, so there's no point in arguing for my position anymore.
I completely agree regarding Thanamesjoani's position being unclear, hence me saying I didn't want to put words in their mouth! And as I said, search results on google aren't a great measure but it does amount to nearly 3 times as many people referring to "look at you kids" (not just in lyric websites but also in reviews, news articles and forum messages) on the internet over "look you kids". Not a justification, just an observation.
There wouldn't be any way you could see from a waveform of a song the phonemics of a person's singing - the waveform would be completely distored by the instrumental backing - so that really couldn't be used to prove anything.
Regardless of anyone's position, it's hard to argue that there isn't a short /ə/ sound between “look” and “you”, the only issue is why Lana’s vocals produced that noise - be it intentionally producing the unstressed grammatical word “at” or the byproduct of the plosive /k/ consonant assimilating towards the approximate consonant /j/. I'm 100% sure, with the materials we have, that we can't be 100% sure, hence why I'd recommend leaning towards what the majority are hearing.
To clarify, Haecandromeis correct as to what I was trying to say. I use Apple Music and the lyrics on there are "Look at you kids with your vintage music". The at' is said in the song but due to Lana's way of delivering her words it may almost sound as if it is not there but it is, kinda sounds like shes sayings "Looka you kids" but we know Looka' is not a logical word. I believe the lyrics on Apple Music are the correct lyrics because before Love was released on Janurary 20th, there was a photo on multiple Lana update Twitter accounts where she met w the head of Apple Music, Scott Plagenhoef. I'm sure Apple Music wouldn't have the wrong lyrics on their service even after meeting w the artist beforehand. I'm not sure how to post the Photo on here but a simple google search for "Lana Del Rey Apple Music Scott Plagenhoef" will confirm this. Hope I clarified what I said
Thanamesjoani, her meeting or working closely with them does not mean they get lyrics directly from her or anyone associated with her. The creators of my favorite PC game, Rocksmith 2014, work with musicians to obtain licences to use their songs in the game but the artists have no control over the lyrics or musical notes that appear in the game. Moreover, I already mentioned Spotify, and it's a perfectly legal service where no song would appear without the permission of the artist or whoever else may hold the rights for the music, yet it used to pull lyrics from a platform like Genius or Musixmatch, both of which use crowdsourced lyrics.
Haecandrome, just for your knowledge, I have an example of incorrect lyrics being more common than the correct / official ones. If you google for "baseball boots bounce" "T. Rex", you get 700 results. The correct version "spaceball boots bounce", as in the booklet, only gives 140 results, none of which link to any of the popular lyrics websites. Same goes for the incorrect part "love on the thunderwing" vs the correct "oh oh thunderwing" or the even funnier "my wings had grooves" vs "my wig hat moves". The song is Thunderwing by T. Rex.
Thank you for your anecdote, however it's not really comparable to this situation. In that example, the majority is wrong as proven by the existence of official lyrics. In this situation, the majority may very well be wrong, but there's nothing to suggest they are except another, albiet less popular, unsubstantiated interpretation.
If and when we get official lyrics, we would use the interpretation provided by the source, regardless of if the majority, unless the official lyrics are very clearly wrong (such as in the aforementioned "passion"/"poison" example). In this case, I can't imagine if/when we get official lyrics for "Love" that the interpretation of the first line of the verses are going to be completely off, so I'm expecting to be able to use the official lyrics to clarify the first line if/when they come out.
In the mean time, there is no definitive evidence that supports the "Look you kids" hearing (or disproves the "Look at you kids" hearing), and more people seem to hear "Look at you kids". If you find or are aware of any evidence that support one of the interpretations, please, by all means, make us aware of it.
Until then there is nothing to suggest either hearing is right, and I don't see how I could justify saying editors have to use "look you kids" when it seems more people hear "look at you kids". What's more, I'm pretty sure it's not my place to enforce that kind of thing, it's a decision that has to be made by Lanapedia community as a whole. I'm just here to switch up the theme every now and again and stop vandelism!
There really is no need for name calling. If BloodyRose thinks there's something in an article that warrants discussion, no matter how big or small it may seem to yourself, they have every right to start that discussion. More than that, I encourage it. I'd much prefer it if, when editors have a dispute, they start a conversation rather than get caught up in an edit war and I don't want anyone to be put off talking about their edits.
As far as I can see we've come to an amicable conclusion, so it's probably best to leave it at that.